Regarding his new novel, the reasons for choosing Ibn Rushd specifically for this work, the boundaries between reality and imagination in what he has written, and his collection of short stories that he has completed, we had this dialogue with him.
Beginning... this dedication to the spirit of Nasr Hamid Abu Zaid, what is its significance?
Naturally, the late thinker Nasr Hamid Abu Zaid is one of the prominent figures of free thought in Egypt, highly valued by Arab and Egyptian culture. His pioneering role in revolutionizing the field of Islamic studies, especially in his contribution to illuminating the field of interpreting texts and establishing the theory of hermeneutics (or the theory of interpretation), recalling the ancient term hermeneutics that began to be used in theological circles to refer to the set of rules and standards followed by the interpreter to understand religious texts, especially the holy scriptures. This term has expanded its meaning in modern applications to include all humanities such as history, sociology, anthropology, aesthetics, literary criticism, folklore. The main issue addressed by hermeneutics in study is the dilemma of interpreting texts in general, whether historical or religious. This is at the core of Ibn Rushd's thoughts on interpretation, emphasizing the necessity of equipping oneself with rational logic and considering historical contexts. It is not hidden from you that Nasr Abu Zeid's ordeal and what he faced in the 1990s remind us of Ibn Rushd's ordeal in his time in various ways.
I am an advocate of blending reality with imagination in most of my texts in general, and I do not believe that I have surpassed that in this text even though it may fall within the framework of historical fiction. Since the text spans two historical periods—one during Ibn Rushd's time in Al-Andalus at the end of the eleventh century under the Almoravids rule and the other in contemporary times—it is obvious that the story that addresses contemporary times is entirely fictional, while the historical period is a mixture of historical reality and imagination. I believe that the role of a novelist is not just to reshape what historians say and repeat it but to infuse it with spirit first and fill the gaps that are not included in historical records. In other words, it is up to the novelist to start where the historian left off to activate the role of the fictional text in providing a neutral understanding of historical events and reinterpreting them in light of attempting to understand the general context and historical period being addressed. Therefore, the manuscript that includes Ibn Rushd's lover is entirely fictional.
"Ziad" is a recurring model for extremist youth... Why do young people fall into the clutches of these dark ideas and act almost identically?
Ziad is not just a recurring model but a model of the genetic evolution of fundamentalist ideas when they move from their basic soil to another. In other words, there is a phenomenon related to Arabs and Muslims living in the West as immigrants or second or third-generation children who grapple with questions about their identity. They begin to cling to an identity rooted in their original culture but often receive it from extremist groups presenting it as true religion or receive it translated, creating confusion in understanding and identity together. Ziad is one example of this confusion among different models of those who receive Islam translated whether in Europe, America, or Asia. He is a model we have seen during the war in Syria for example or with the emergence of ISIS.
Victory for reason is one of the important outcomes of Ibn Rushd's ideas... Do we need to revive this man's thinking?
In my estimation, Ibn Rushd is one of the most important Arab minds, a major thinker and philosopher rather than just a jurist or commentator on Aristotle's texts as some like to describe him, especially those enamored with Sufism. He was known for his strong skepticism towards Sufi doctrines, especially in the idea of reaching answers through contemplation and seclusion. He was a highly rational man in all fields he worked in—jurisprudence, commentary, or interpretation of Aristotle or even as a physician. Unfortunately, we know nothing about the man except for some common misconceptions. His important ideas and comments on Aristotle's explanations are crucial because he used explanations as a means to conduct social and political critique in Andalusian society. However, we have not received anything from them.
Therefore, it is certain that we are in dire need to reclaim the true Ibn Rushd, whose ideas led to the creation and transmission of rational currents throughout Europe. He played a foundational role in religious reform in both the Christian and Jewish contexts when his ideas were utilized in Italy and France after overcoming the initial religious rigidity led by Thomas Aquinas, before the spread of the Rashidun school in the West. Similarly, his contemporary Jewish counterpart Moses Maimonides, known in the West as the Maimonid, established schools of Jewish religious reform and freed them from extremism by benefiting from Ibn Rushd's ideas.
All your works are unique and distinct from each other, each work stands as an entity on its own. Does this mean that the idea imposes itself on you?
Usually, I find myself preoccupied with one or more ideas during the period when I am close to completing a text, but I let myself be driven to finish one of them. By the way, during a period of pause and confusion in building the novel "A House of Ornaments," the idea of the Reader of the Train novel came to mind, so I completed it, then returned to this text. This pause led me to rebuild it in the form it came out with after four attempts. The first was a traditional historical text, then I added a fantasy aspect to it, then stopped. Finally, I arrived at the idea of the manuscript and the structure that was published.
Did you turn to writing a historical novel this time?
Mohammed Elhamzani : I think historical fiction has crossed my mind before in "Reader of the Train," but in a completely non-traditional way, with a touch of fantasy. I believe that the world as a whole, not just the Arab world, is currently going through a pivotal historical phase. It is clear that today's world is on the brink of massive changes in political and economic patterns due to the transition from a bipolar world and then a unipolar world to a new multipolar world after China's rise and Russia's return, along with the fall of major countries in the Arab world.
And the changing map of international powers in general. In such complex circumstances and their significant impact on concepts and identities, it is necessary to return to history. But what does it mean to return to history? Not to retrieve tales from the past, but to re-read history and understand it truly. Today, it has become clear that we have believed many lies as history, and how many times have we believed Western slogans about democracy and freedom only to realize that they are mere slogans to enable Western capital dominance over the world. Approaching history makes us confront a number of phenomena, including who writes history and how we try to verify the truth. Ask ten people today to present you with a document about the events of January 25 that have not passed more than fifteen years and reflect on how stories and perspectives about a "contemporary historical" event can differ.
I returned to history in "Reader of the Train" to contemplate the idea of Egyptian identity, and in "A House of Ornaments," I returned to history in order to rediscover the roots of rationality in our Arab heritage and how to reclaim it in our contemporary lives.
What readings did you rely on in writing the text?
Naturally, before starting to write the text, I had to read not only about Ibn Rushd's biography or his era but also extensively about Andalusian history in general. This took me a long time as I read his biography in several versions by Al-Aqqad, Lotfi Jomaa, Farah Anton, and Abid Jabri. Then I read two of his main books such as "The Decisive Treatise" linking wisdom and law through communication, excerpts from his book and also looked at "The Incoherence of Philosophers" by Al-Ghazali and Ibn Rushd's response in "The Incoherence of Incoherence" as well as excerpts from his translations and commentaries on Aristotle and others.
But I did not just stop at reading about Ibn Rushd; I also delved into Andalusian history in general, how it began and who founded it not only from the period of Islamicconquest led by Tariq ibn Ziyad but basically with the establishment of the Islamic state in Al-Andalus by Abd al-Rahman ibn Muawiya al-Umayyad in 756 CE in Al-Andalus and parts of North Africa, with its capital in Cordoba. Then it turned into a caliphate with Abd al-Rahman declaring himself Caliph of Cordoba in 929 CE instead of his previous title as Amir of Cordoba, a title held by Umayyad princes since Abd al-Rahman's independence in Al-Andalus. This state was established following the fall of the Umayyad state in the East at the hands of the Abbasids, who later pursued Umayyads after establishing their state. Among them was Abd al-Rahman al-Dakhil, who fled to Al-Andalus and declared his independence there. He was known as "Abd al-Rahman al-Dakhil" because he "entered" (meaning migrated) to Al-Andalus since he assumed power when Muslims entered Al-Andalus in a new era based on political principles far from racism and tribalism, replacing tribal authority with state authority represented by the prince. Al-Andalus began its journey towards acquiring civilization.
Then came the Almohads, the era in which Ibn Rushd lived, in the year 1145 (Ibn Rushd was born in 1126).
The reader cannot help but be fascinated by the character of "Lubna"... Where did you draw inspiration for her?
Mohammed Elhamzani: In Andalusian history, there are several examples of Andalusian women known to be poets or scribes associated with the elite, including Lubna al-Qurtubiyya. This character is not related to Ibn Rushd's time as she predates him, having passed away in 984 CE. It is said her name was Lubna bint Abd al-Mawla, a scribe for the Caliph al-Hakam al-Mustansir bi-llah, who trusted her greatly, even allowing her to sign on his behalf. Originally a girl of slave origin with Spanish roots, she later became the caliph's secretary in Cordoba. She was a skilled calligrapher, grammarian, poet, proficient in mathematics, and engaged in scientific pursuits. She embodies a recurring model in Andalusian history, and from this character and others, I imagined the character of Lubna in the text or as Ibn Rushd's lover as suggested.
Did you use any other methods besides reading to experience or witness the history you wrote about?
Yes, I visited Andalusia twice. The first time was to explore three main cities: Cordoba, Seville, and Granada because many Andalusian artifacts are still present, such as the historic area and the Great Mosque in Cordoba, as well as some artifacts in Seville. Then Granada because Ibn Rushd visited it several times.
The second time, I focused only on Cordoba and then the city of Alisana where Ibn Rushd was exiled during the ordeal. I also visited the library of El Escorial in Madrid to view some original manuscripts available for Ibn Rushd, most of which were written by contemporary scribes.
"A House of Ornaments" is a title with an elitist cultural connotation... What did you mean by it?
The title is always the hardest thing, and often there is a symbolic title I work with during writing until the final title of the text crystallizes. It ranged from "Ibn Rushd's Lover" to "Averroes," but I thought that the house where Ibn Rushd endured his ordeal and imagined that a female student of his decided to live with him during that ordeal would be a dream house for her because it connects her with a great cultural symbol and teacher. I found that the title "A House of Ornaments" achieves this idea.
After this exhausting effort in this massive novel... Do you have a new literary project in mind?
Sometimes after writing a text like this, one feels satisfied with writing. But in reality, I still have ideas swirling around and I leave myself until I see which one will call out to me and be able to attract me. However, I have finished a collection of short stories that I have been working on finalizing for some time. Perhaps there will be a necessary break between two literary projects.